SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

The Eternity Ring (July 1946); The Cage (August 1946); Sunflower (Aug/Sept 1946)

Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby starlight » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:33 pm

ayresorchids wrote:What I read in Foyle's face in the wake of it all was disappointment and a sense of waste.

And doesn't Foyle go on to say something to Andrew about having received the bourbon from a friend... that was. Sounding regretful?


The reinvented-for-the-purpose character of Kiefer is, as I recall, despite Foyle's friendly overtures at the beginning of All Clear, stand-offish with him. Clearly Foyle is bewildered by his attitude, hence the bourbon/friend remark. And by the end of the episode, he looks to be mourning the loss of that friend. The disappointment you read in his expression could be interpreted as Foyle's sadness over Kiefer's failure to come to him, though his door was patently wide open at the outset. If Kiefer had done so, perhaps they could have talked, Foyle could have helped and the loss of Griffiths could have been avoided.

Kiefer's parting jibe "...or are you the only one to have remained above it all, Christopher?", piteous though it sounds, is nonetheless indicative of residual embitterment. Embitterment that had indirectly caused a man to kill himself.

Still rooting for St Christopher :fallenangel: to be let through the Pearly Gates here. :cloud9: Worried for the soul of a fictional character (how sad is that?)

Starlight :rose:
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Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby Wolesley » Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:02 am

This is a fine discussion of character consistency and moral attitudes/rectitude; quite enjoyed reading it!

For my two cents ~

Lynnedean wrote:Conversation between Valentine and Foyle at their first meeting:
[list]Valentine: "Did you know that Senator Howard Paige is dead?"
Foyle: "I didn't."
Valentine: "He took his own life."
Foyle: "That's regrettable."


I interpreted this exchange as meaning that Foyle had left the case in the hands of local authorities after proving, or providing sufficient proof, for them to investigate or prosecute Paige, if not for the murder, then for the theft of the invention and patent rights to the synchromesh gear system. If Paige could see that he would indeed be facing prosecution and the attendant publicity, scandal and damage to his reputation, he no doubt realized he could not make it go away, and so took his own life.

Given that a ship's crossing from New York to the UK took about a week or so, and daily news was available on board, Paige must have only 'topped hisself' several days or a week after Foyle departed from New York, since this was news to Foyle when he disembarked. So it must have been a continuing investigation or prosecution - not a result of Foyle standing under his window chewing on his cheek (as someone described in an earlier discussion - loved that image!).

Does this make any sense?

Lesley (also worried for Foyle's soul)
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Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby Lynnedean » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:41 am

ayresorchids wrote:Although I haven't seen "All Clear" very recently, I don't recall Foyle as being that hard on Kieffer ...

He's ice cold in that scene, Chris. I'll never be able to accept his total lack of compassion toward Kiefer: it jars too harshly with the Foyle we'd come to know and love.

Wolesley wrote:I interpreted this exchange as meaning that Foyle had left the case in the hands of local authorities after proving, or providing sufficient proof, for them to investigate or prosecute Paige, if not for the murder, then for the theft of the invention and patent rights to the synchromesh gear system. If Paige could see that he would indeed be facing prosecution and the attendant publicity, scandal and damage to his reputation, he no doubt realized he could not make it go away, and so took his own life.

I've given that some thought, Lesley, but I just can't run with it.

Foyle was in the US for six months, and, as he told Valentine, his return journey on the Mauretania took five days. How long would it have taken Paige to decide to take his own life? Not a sudden decision, surely, so he had to be at least thinking about it while Foyle was on his trail. In any case, Paige, we assume, would never have contemplated suicide had Foyle not gone to the US in the first place. Foyle may not have regretted Paige's death - indeed, he probably thought it fitting, as the man would surely have been given the death penalty for murder had he been brought to justice in 1940 - but he had to accept at least a measure of responsibility for driving him to it, and this when he was no longer working in an official capacity. (A picture comes to mind - Foyle as the Equaliser!)

With this and other points that have been made about the ex-DCS's questionable behaviour, it seems that the post-war Foyle is no longer a stickler for working within the law. Could it be an intentional development, I wonder.
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Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby starlight » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:10 am

Wolesley wrote:Given that a ship's crossing from New York to the UK took about a week or so, and daily news was available on board, Paige must have only 'topped hisself' several days or a week after Foyle departed from New York, since this was news to Foyle when he disembarked. So it must have been a continuing investigation or prosecution - not a result of Foyle standing under his window chewing on his cheek (as someone described in an earlier discussion - loved that image!).

Does this make any sense?

Lesley (also worried for Foyle's soul)


Keen, calm logic as ever, Lesley :smile:

:foyle4: The cheek-chewing image of Foyle under Paige's window was flippant me. Serious me agrees with your better analysis.
:fallenangel: Equally, "St Christopher" = flippant me. Foyle is no saint but I see him as honourable. Which leads me back to Lynne...

Lynnedean wrote:Conversation between Valentine and Foyle at their first meeting:

Valentine: "Did you know that Senator Howard Paige is dead?"
Foyle: "I didn't."
Valentine: "He took his own life."
Foyle: "That's regrettable."
Valentine: "Oh, I wonder. You've been hounding him for six months."
Foyle: "Not the word I'd use. So you're here to arrest me, is that it?"

Foyle is apparently unmoved by the thought that his relentless pursuit of Paige could well have been the cause of the man taking his own life. It appears that he accepts no responsibility.


Lynne - I agree that Foyle is unmoved. The word "regrettable" is no apology for Paige's death. Doesn't even count as a politician's apology (i.e. sad but not my fault). "Regrettable" more likely refers to Foyle's disappointment that Paige is dodging justice for being a thief and a murderer.

Dead right, he has no sympathy for Paige. Why should he have?

And Foyle is justified in rejecting the characterisation of his pursuit of Paige as "hounding". "Hounding" implies defenceless victim under aggressive attack by superior force of numbers. Paige is no underdog. He is on his home territory with money, power and influence at his back. Foyle walks into that arena with no weapon but the truth, and no army but the evidence - he doesn't even have the authority of the police behind him (does he?).

Sympathy for Paige would be entirely misplaced in that scenario. In fact, if we accept that the FBI are seriously annoyed with Foyle, it seems likely that Foyle himself was given a hard time by the authorities in America, no doubt fuelled by the machinations of a certain self-serving Senator Paige.

Not easy, then, to imagine that Foyle would ever remove his hat and breathe the words "Poor Howard" at his funeral.

Now for the Kiefer thing in All Clear. Foyle's manner towards him sends a chill down your spine? Lynne! I'm tugging at your sleeve begging you to reconsider :cry: Hate to say it, because I loved the Kiefer of "Invasion", but his behaviour towards Griffiths in AC amounted to the psychological equivalent of hounding. It was subtle, insidious, and applied to a broken man, no longer in post, who, even if he'd wanted to admit his blame, where would he have gone with the information and to whom? Kiefer's demeanour was cold and his method was sadistic. Should Foyle not have called his "friend" out on this behaviour, when it precipitated a death? Foyle would be a lesser man if he hadn't.

I move for reinstatement of Foyle's honour, Your Honour. :judge:
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Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby Wolesley » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:27 pm

"...no weapon but the truth, no army but the evidence."

Beautifully phrased, Starlight! I agree!

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Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby jewell » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:31 pm

Crap!

I posted a hurried but well thought out commentary on this subject yesterday, Friday, about 12:30 CDT and it's not here. I was interested in your reactions, but it's not here!

I'll look in my user control panel - does this possibly save drafts?

Any help, Lesley?

No time to recreate it now.

Computer frustration!!! :foyle3:

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Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby Wolesley » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:39 pm

Sorry, Jewell, that has happened to me several times, too, while composing a brilliant, or more likely, lengthy, response - extremely frustrating!!! Sometimes the composition window on this site just times out and kicks you out! I've learned to hit the 'preview' button if I've been thinking too long as I write, and then continue composing. That seems to save the draft, usually.

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Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby starlight » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:50 pm

jewell wrote:Crap!

I posted a hurried but well thought out commentary on this subject yesterday, Friday, about 12:30 CDT and it's not here. I was interested in your reactions, but it's not here!

Jewell


:writer: Dang. Write it again!
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Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby Lynnedean » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:36 pm

The board will do this to you at times, Jewell. As Lesley says, it's a time out thing. There are two ways by which you can ensure that if the board loses your message when you try to post it, you still have the text ...

1. compose your message in a word processor and then copy it over to the board when ready, or
2. compose your message on the board, but take a copy of the text before clicking "submit" to post it
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Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby Sunshine » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:58 pm

We've also discussed, with regard to the scene with Sam about not discussing cases in "Bleak Midwinter," that it was possible that Foyle was trying to protect her from blurting out anything precisely because Milner was involved.

I agree that in "All Clear," Foyle's disappointment with Kieffer relates to the fact that Kieffer undertook such tactics to get Griffiths to admit his guilt, and didn't confront Griffiths head-on. It may be true that Foyle misunderstood the grief and anguish Kieffer felt at having undergone such a tragedy, and Kieffer actually addresses this in that comment to Foyle about Foyle's remaining "above it all." (Or AH may address, through Kieffer's comment, any discomfort with Foyle's upset about Kieffer's actions.)

And I agree that his "regrettable" comment indicates that Foyle wanted to bring Paige to justice alive and well. :foyle4:

I'm not so worried for Foyle's soul. :foyle5:
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Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby Jillybean » Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:49 pm

starlight wrote:
Still rooting for St Christopher :fallenangel: to be let through the Pearly Gates here. :cloud9: Worried for the soul of a fictional character (how sad is that?)

Starlight :rose:


I would imagine this has already been discussed on QE (apologies in advance if it has, I haven't had a chance to read all yet) but I wonder if we would be indifferent about Foyle if he were played by another actor? Not trying to digress but during the New Year's eve prison scene in Dandelion Dead when Major Armstrong is looking out the window to the nearby singing of auld lang syne - all I saw was Kitchen and just felt utter sadness for him (now that is 'sad').

But if it were another actor, I don't think I would have been as sad :sad:
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Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby starlight » Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:02 am

Jillybean wrote:
But if it were another actor, I don't think I would have been as sad :sad:


Yes. Anyone would think there were an MK obsession in this forum... :rofl: :lol:

Cf: reactions to Stephen Vey from The Guilty and Roman out of Chancer.

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Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby ayresorchids » Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:04 am

When you really know you're a goner is when you feel sympathy for him at times even in Chancer and The Guilty. [shakes head at hopelessness of her own plight] :sad:
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Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby Jillybean » Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:23 am

I know, it's quite an obvious observation, but I personally don't ever feel empathy with any other actor (well maybe David Suchet a little).

I admit that in Chancer, part (well most) of me was thinking "Why Dex? What on earth is she thinking when Roman is up for it!" It's not unusual for me to see that the 'good guy' tends to be in the wrong only when MK plays the bad guy. I'm trying to be less biased but it's very difficult...

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Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby starlight » Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:44 am

Jillybean wrote:I'm trying to be less biased but it's very difficult...
:awkward:

Don't try. Please don't try. :thankyou: Your output while you're held in thrall has been just sterling.

No, but you're right though. He positively pins a person with his line in charm and anguish - like no other.
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Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby Sunshine » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:31 am

starlight wrote:

Yes. Anyone would think there were an MK obsession in this forum... :rofl: :lol:

Starlight :rose:



Ya think? :lol: :foyle5:
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Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby Samfan » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:32 pm

Just re-watched Eternity Ring last night. I still don't get all aspects of the plot (sigh--I don't think I ever will :puzzled: ). But at the end, when Foyle is talking To Fraser, did Foyle really believe that Fraser would just go turn himself in to the MI-5? I always think that when I see that scene.

:noidea:

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Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby starlight » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:46 pm

Samfan wrote:Just re-watched Eternity Ring last night. I still don't get all aspects of the plot (sigh--I don't think I ever will :puzzled: ). But at the end, when Foyle is talking To Fraser, did Foyle really believe that Fraser would just go turn himself in to the MI-5? I always think that when I see that scene.

:noidea:

Samfan

I haven't watched it all that recently, but my recollection of the ending is that Foyle is giving Fraser the chance to speak up before he turns him in. Honourable men, y'know. :smile:
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Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby Samfan » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:49 pm

starlight wrote:
Samfan wrote:Just re-watched Eternity Ring last night. I still don't get all aspects of the plot (sigh--I don't think I ever will :puzzled: ). But at the end, when Foyle is talking To Fraser, did Foyle really believe that Fraser would just go turn himself in to the MI-5? I always think that when I see that scene.

:noidea:

Samfan

I haven't watched it all that recently, but my recollection of the ending is that Foyle is giving Fraser the chance to speak up before he turns him in. Honourable men, y'know. :smile:


That true, Starlight. Should have known that Foyle would probably have turned him in.

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Re: SPOILERS for The Eternity Ring

Postby Wolesley » Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:36 am

Professor Fraser is modelled after atomic scientist Alan Nunn May, who did give research secrets and isotopes to the Soviets. Horowitz made the character rather more idealistically motivated, intimating that Foyle persuades him to take a moral stand and declare his actions to the British authorities, so that Foyle wouldn't have to turn him in.

Here's a bit about Nunn May -

May refused to define his actions as treason, claiming in a statement after his release from prison that he believed he had "acted rightly" and had acted as a spy because of being "wholeheartedly concerned with securing victory over Nazi Germany and Japan, and the furtherance of the development of the peaceful uses of atomic energy."
Read more here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Nunn_May

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