Literary Event

Re: Literary Event

Postby Englishfan » Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:48 am

Have not watched The Hide for a long time. I need to do it again. Maybe tonight.

Therefore, I am unclear as to whether CF could be the ONLY person who "knew her." (How's that for being diplomatic!)

Maybe he isn't admitting to himself just yet that he is, most likely, the father. I immediately assumed he was the boy's father. Since that thought worked for me, I have not given the alternative much investigation.

I also remember our discussion of Sam's lack of children. Did she miscarry or was she unable to get pregnant? That was ambiguous, too. She did have a child (where is that child?!), so I guess it was a miscarriage. But that was not clear.

P.S. Let's hope the child looks like Sam's husband!!!! Now, there's a storyline.

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Re: Literary Event

Postby mohairMK » Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:57 am

kitchentease wrote:I agree with the others that Foyle is being sensitive in reaching out to Jack while still giving him space to come to terms with his new reality. It feels strange to us in our time where emotions are seldom restrained but this is the same man who barely gives Andrew a hug.

Well put. :thumbsup:
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Re: Literary Event

Postby Lynnedean » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:11 am

If James is indeed Foyle's son, then his attitude towards him will always be inexplicably cold to me. It doesn't tally with what I would expect would be a natural response in such circumstances. Foyle is only human and so has faults; this, to my mind, is one of them.
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Re: Literary Event

Postby starlight » Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:36 am

Lynnedean wrote:If James is indeed Foyle's son, then his attitude towards him will always be inexplicably cold to me. ... . Foyle is only human and so has faults; this, to my mind, is one of them.

(Well, I really wish I had something better to do on a Sunday morning than play at rationalising Foyle, but, circumstances and all... Anyway, here goes:)

I'd call it 'buttoned-up'. Is that subtly different from 'cold'? The circumstances of James' conception, and the decision Caroline made for them both must have added immense personal pain to the already life-threatening situation the war was putting Foyle in. I imagine he wouldn't have fancied his chances of surviving the war, having seen what he'd already seen. So he buried the emotion.

Later, he bounces back by marrying Rosalind and having Andrew. Then he gets slapped down again. I feel sorry for him. He's schooled himself to be very cautious in expecting personal happiness, and this is what makes him unforthcoming in matters of the heart - particularly when faced with a virtual clone of himself (James) who is similarly damaged, and finds reaching out equally difficult.

I think this is why Foyle and Sam work so well together, however you want to take them. She is the complete opposite of Foyle in personality, and succeeds in breaking down some formerly unbreachable barriers. If he's ever going to be "cured", Foyle needs someone to grab him by the lapels and shake him. We might wish for a paternal embrace in the cell, but somehow, given the two men involved, and given the experiences that have formed them, it would feel like an unlikely outcome.

This perhaps doesn't exonerate Foyle - after all, he's the daddy (in both senses :lol: ), but as some astute person once said: "To understand all is to pardon all."*

Starlight :rose:

[* :cool: It took Mme de Stael about five minutes to hit back with "To understand all is to be too indulgent." :wink: ]
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Re: Literary Event

Postby hazeleyes57 » Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:05 am

Gosh, I had no idea I'd start a discussion like this!!

Foyle is a clever construct of what a man from that time period and upbringing could be like if you sprinkle a few 'modern' man qualities in the mix. His laudable attitude to homosexuality and illegitimate babies was unusual at the time. Families really did shun people who broke the rules, even some that we would not blink an eye at these days.

AH spoke of being asked to write a new James Bond book by the Fleming estate. He said he was flattered as he adored Bond, but it presented him with a dilemma. Did he make Bond in the book's image or the film one? The book had no gadgets, he was a thug and he used women appallingly. There was no nice side to him. The film's closest representation of the book imho would be Sean Connery with his courtesy to women removed!! AH pointed out that today's readership would not tolerate the original Bond's dinosaur attitude to many things and I think the same could be said of Foyle. 1950 had barely invented the concept of the 'teenager', let alone men hugging each other and crying at the drop of a hat. My husband's grandfather was never ever seen kissing or hugging the wife he adored, let alone romping with his children.

We invented the stiff upper lip a long time ago :lol:
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Re: Literary Event

Postby amiga » Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:20 pm

Very well said, Starlight.

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Re: Literary Event

Postby jewell » Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:14 pm

Hmmmm,

I agree with the majority of you more than my last post seemed. Although I like the ambiguity, I am pretty sure that James could have been or is Foyle's son. (Please see The Long Shadow and Into the Sunlight in the fanfic section.)

It's the screenplay I am at odds with, the characterization of Foyle at the end of The Hide is wrong, wrong, WRONG!

I CANNOT see the Foyle I got to know and love traipse off to America just then. Sorry, AH and ITV, but he would not do that.

Neither am I expecting an effusive, "oh, son! oh Dad" scene, I didn't expect any hugs or anything. I just don't believe Foyle would go to America just then. He would have stayed in Hastings, available to his possible son, until Jack was settled into a semblance of normal life. Then, and only then, would he have gone to America.

Remember this was not the last ship to America. On the contrary, the ship would have turned around as soon as possible and been back in England ready to make another trip in about two weeks time. Not to mention the many other ships ferrying Yanks and equipment to America and supplies back.

All of this can be solved for me if I mentally add a month between the scene in the cell with Jack and the scene at the docks. Maybe there's a fanfic right there, waiting to be written...

Enjoying this,

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Re: Literary Event

Postby ayresorchids » Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:48 pm

Jewell just alerted me to this fascinating discussion. I'm fairly sure I've already listed the many reasons I assumed, from the first viewing of "The Hide," that CF was the father of James, though I grant that the presentation offers ambivalence. (If you'd like me to re-list them in this thread, I'll be happy to.)

But for me the dead giveaway is one of those moments of incredible Kitchen acting, in which we get about three sentences just from the look in his eyes.

FOYLE: I knew her.
I was injured in the first war. Not very badly, but I was young, alone, frightened. She was a volunteer nurse...
Your mother was beautiful.
I knew her.

JAMES: She was married to my father at the time?

FOYLE: Yes.
I can tell you that she was desperately unhappy with the life she was leading; at her happiest when he was away... but chose to pursue that life for the sake of the child she was carrying.

JAMES [stunned and tearful]: Me.

Foyle's expression, just after James says, "Me", bears a trace of a reassuring smile, a kindly sort of blink, a steady eye-contact. To me, it clearly communicates: "Yes, James, I am your father, and I'm sorry I didn't stay in your life, but I had to honour what your mother asked of me, because I loved her very much."

As for the way that Foyle hurries away to America on the very day that was to have seen James Devereaux's execution, I think it reflects the great difficulty CF's brother-in-law has had in procuring him passage:

CDR HOWARD: Here you are, Christopher. I had the devil of a job getting them! I managed to square the visa with the Americans, but, as for the Queen Mary, she's been requisitioned--for military and naval use only.

FOYLE: Mm-hmm.

CDR HOWARD: I could've tried sending you as a GI bride, but I don't think that would've worked.

FOYLE [wryly] Wonder why.
So what has happened?

CDR HOWARD: I had a word with the MOI. You're departing Southampton on the 17th. And if anyone asks, you're on a sponsored lecture tour, all right?

FOYLE: Right.

CDR HOWARD: Remember, it's my neck on the line.

FOYLE: I will. I'm grateful. Thank you.

Have to confess that the idea that CF is deserting James at a time of need had not occurred to me; in an unconscious way I must have drawn the conclusion that some of you have--that he was giving James some space and some time. Anyway, that concept makes sense to me. I especially like HarrietVane's idea that he might wish to give James a sense of control that the young man has seldom had.

But I do intensely dislike that we then never even heard about James (or for that matter, Andrew) in our last three installments. Why do I have a hunch, though, that this lack of personal life for Foyle is not something MK objects to very much?
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Re: Literary Event

Postby Englishfan » Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:16 pm

What a post, Ayresorchids! :thankyou:

I think you have it sorted out and I will watch it from this perspective.

Totally agree:
Ayresorchids wrote:
But I do intensely dislike that we then never even heard about James (or for that matter, Andrew) in our last three installments. Why do I have a hunch, though, that this lack of personal life for Foyle is not something MK objects to very much?


thank-you.

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Re: Literary Event

Postby starlight » Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:31 pm

ayresorchids wrote:CDR HOWARD: I could've tried sending you as a GI bride, but I don't think that would've worked.
:foyle1:

Oh, I dunno. It would've delighted our American contingent. And it worked for Cary Grant. :lol:

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Re: Literary Event

Postby mohairMK » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:43 pm

starlight wrote: I feel sorry for him (Foyle). He's schooled himself to be very cautious in expecting personal happiness, and this is what makes him unforthcoming in matters of the heart - particularly when faced with a virtual clone of himself (James) who is similarly damaged, and finds reaching out equally difficult.

And he's also trained himself not to give anything away, (just watch him interview any suspect) which has stood him well as a policeman, but has also closed off much of his expression of a personal nature.
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Re: Literary Event

Postby mohairMK » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:48 pm

ayresorchids wrote:As for the way that Foyle hurries away to America on the very day that was to have seen James Devereaux's execution, I think it reflects the great difficulty CF's brother-in-law has had in procuring him passage:

CDR HOWARD: Here you are, Christopher. I had the devil of a job getting them! I managed to square the visa with the Americans, but, as for the Queen Mary, she's been requisitioned--for military and naval use only.

FOYLE: Mm-hmm.

CDR HOWARD: I could've tried sending you as a GI bride, but I don't think that would've worked.

FOYLE [wryly] Wonder why.

CDR HOWARD: I had a word with the MOI. You're departing Southampton on the 17th. And if anyone asks, you're on a sponsored lecture tour, all right?

FOYLE: Right.

CDR HOWARD: Remember, it's my neck on the line.

FOYLE: I will. I'm grateful. Thank you.

Excellent point, ayresorchids! I mean there was a war going on, and you couldn't just sail away anytime you wanted.
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Re: Literary Event

Postby Sunshine » Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:15 am

I still think he's ambivalent enough in the scene with James - the reference to "the child she was carrying" - that it could go either way - that Caroline was pregnant when she met young Mr. Foyle.

Whatever the conclusion, I love the way "The Long Shadow" covers it. :foyle1:
Just looked over the chapter on "Horse Racing and Illegal Rambling."

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Re: Literary Event

Postby jewell » Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:52 pm

Sunshine wrote:Whatever the conclusion, I love the way "The Long Shadow" covers it. :foyle1:

:pleased: :pleased: :pleased:
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Re: Literary Event

Postby dogstar » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:08 pm

Well, I know I'm a bit late to this discussion :oops: , but if MK thought the issue should be presented ambiguously, I say "well done MK!" :thumbsup: Imaging James as a secret illegitimate son is hardly a new and innovative plot device, and the concept undermines my sense of the importance of Rosalind to CF and of his relationship to Andrew. But then again, I am in what I believe is the minority as to the viability of a :foyle5: and :samkiss: union.

If, rather than CF's efforts to help and support James being grounded in fatherhood, they are grounded in a (forgive me) Snape-like devotion to the child of a woman he loved and thought highly of, you have an explanation of why he acted so quickly when he became aware James was in trouble and his far less determined follow through after the danger has passed fits in well with the CF we have grown to know.
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Re: Literary Event

Postby starlight » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:25 pm

dogstar wrote:... James as a secret illegitimate son ...undermines my sense of the importance of Rosalind to CF and of his relationship to Andrew.

Andrew wouldn't have been born before 1918. Probably 1919. Foyle tells Andrew that he joined the army early, as a volunteer. I do think we're meant to understand that the affair with Caroline was early in the war, before he married Rosalind.
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Re: Literary Event

Postby dogstar » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:50 pm

Yes, that's understood and I ddn't mean to indicate that CF was already married when he fell in love with a married woman. My thought is that, particularly in the early episodes, you get a sense that his marriage to Rosalind was a very important part of who he is ("marrying her changed everything"). The loss of her is perhaps the reason why he is reserved and introspective with women-- as if he fears falling in love and then suffering another loss. For me at least, when you load too many "historical loves" on to CF, this aspect of his character is weakened.

Then again, those of us who think beyond the episodes themselves will surely come up with differing opionions on motivations and backstory. And BTW, I find the complete absense of any reference to Andrew extremely jarring.
Come on, AH, could we just have a few lines of dialogue:

CF I had a letter from Andrew yesterday. He sends you his best.

SS: That's nice. How is he?

CF: He is working hard and enjoying himself. He has a second book of poety due out in October. He intends to spend at least another year in . . .San Francisco? . . .Naples?. . .Chicago? . . .Aberdeen?
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Re: Literary Event

Postby amiga » Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:03 pm

Quite frankly, I was glad to know that CF was a normal man, who had several loves in his life. Didn't diminish the character one bit, for me. The first was natural to me. She was his nurse; lots of people have fallen in love with their nurse, so he shouldn't be judged too harshly by the fact that she was married. The second couldn't marry him because her father objected, and the third he married. All seems quite normal to me. Truthfully, I would find a flawless CF not very appealing.

Agree that no mention of Andrew in the new series was very strange. Could have been so easily mentioned when he meets up with Sam.

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Re: Literary Event

Postby HarrietVane » Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:24 pm

amiga wrote:Quite frankly, I was glad to know that CF was a normal man, who had several loves in his life. Didn't diminish the character one bit, for me. The first was natural to me. She was his nurse; lots of people have fallen in love with their nurse, so he shouldn't be judged too harshly by the fact that she was married. The second couldn't marry him because her father objected, and the third he married. All seems quite normal to me. Truthfully, I would find a flawless CF not very appealing.

Agree that no mention of Andrew in the new series was very strange. Could have been so easily mentioned when he meets up with Sam.

Amiga


I've always pictured Elizabeth as the first love (and I've imagined CF enlisting so early in WWI partly out of a need for a change after that failed relationship) but the timeline is so indistinct it's hard to say.
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Re: Literary Event

Postby Wolesley » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:01 am

I've imagined the timeline to be as follows:

Foyle, up and coming young police sergeant, meets Elizabeth and by her response to his wooing assumes she feels he is a suitable match. He soon proposes, and she says yes, but then he is knocked down several pegs rather badly by her father. Disappointed in love (and embarrassed socially) he joins up with Kitchener's Volunteers in 1915.
Then the sad young Foyle has the "three worst years of his life," as he told Andrew.

During this time in the Great War he is wounded and sent to hospital not far from Hastings. He meets and falls in love with Caroline Devereaux, perhaps at first not knowing she is married. They are both desperately unhappy and fall into each other's arms for comfort. A child is conceived.
Caroline goes back to her husband, because both she and Foyle doubt he will survive the War.

On one of his next leaves at home young Foyle, who is now a Temporary Officer and a Gentleman, meets Rosalind Howard, and her parents are more accepting, understandably, as eligible young men were not so thick on the ground at this point in the War. And then the Influenza Epidemic started. So a happy marriage and a son born in wedlock results.

That's my take on it, at least.

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